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Parents and Guardians Forum>Another Child Touched My Son at Daycare
Unregistered 03:08 PM 03-29-2010
I went to pick up my 4 year old son today from daycare. He and another boy were both sitting in time out. The story is as follows: Both children were caught kissing in the housekeeping center. They said they were reenacting a movie scene (batman kissing catwoman). Then, in the puzzle center, they were both caught with their pants down. My son told me that it was the other boy's idea. He said they should take their pants off (admin - omitted). My son then said that he did the same thing to this other boy.

What do I do about this? We do not show our children anything inappropriate on television. We are a pretty modest family. We have talked with all of our kids about their private parts being private and that other people (besides mommy, daddy, and the doctor) shouldn't see them. How should I be dealing with this? How should the daycare be dealing with this?

There is a camera in the room. They are going to be looking at the tape tomorrow and deciding what really happened. I just don't know what to do...
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GretasLittleFriends 06:29 PM 03-29-2010
That's a difficult situation. Personally I would wait and see what the tape showed. I'd also ask to see it with the daycare staff. I'm not sure they can do much. I would think they would conference with the other child's parents as well. Of course if it continued to be a problem they'd have to terminate the child that's causing the problem.
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Michael 06:46 PM 03-29-2010
A related post that might help: https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8269
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grandmom 02:13 PM 04-01-2010
Dr. play for 4 year olds is normal. It's just as normal - and just as socially UNacceptable for us adults- as biting is for a 2 year old.

Now, perhaps one of the boys was at the doctor recently in preparation of Kindergarten. Kids do what is done to them. So they come home and play doctor. No big deal.

The big deal comes when adults get all up about it. Then the kids start thinking about why and they explore more. Just like any other behavior that gets our attention. So I just tell the kids to go "clean up the puzzle area" or something, and then keep them apart for a while.

Unfortunately in my state, any physical touch like this is reportable. And, quite unfortunately, that report stays in the kids' file f-o-r-e-v-e-r. Even the 'victim' of this play.

My solution. No doctor kits of any kind. No doctor play of any kind. No babydolls with body parts. All shirts/shorts on even in the sprinkler. I don't ever want to make that kind of report.
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QualiTcare 10:14 PM 04-20-2010
my daughter was in a similar situation - also at 4 years old. nobody caught them with their pants down, but she and another girl were caught kissing.

at first, i just talked to her and told her she couldn't be kissing anyone (and i left the topic of sex (male/female) out of it). like your son, she blamed it on the other child - saying the other child kissed her, coerced her, etc. i believed it was both of them - especially since it happened again - and again.

at first i ignored it thinking it would work itself out -they would experiment, get it out of their system, and it would stop. it didn't. eventually i told her she would be grounded if it continued - no cartoons, no coloring books, no outside time, etc. i still never mentioned the fact that she shouldn't be kissing a GIRL, but just another child in general. i'm pretty liberal and i didn't want to engrain it in her head that kissing someone of the same sex was WRONG or nasty - but that kissing PERIOD wasn't appropriate for a child. afterall, who knows who she'll grow up to be - i didn't want to make any harsh comments about WHO she was kissing.

even after being grounded, they did it again - but i stuck to it and continued taking away priveleges - and i would talk to her, you know, "is it worth it not being able to go outside, not watching cartoons, etc." the very last time it happened (that i was made aware of) she cried when i confronted her about it and told her she would be grounded. she swore it was the other child (who was her best friend) that was doing it/initiating it - whatever. that's when i told the teacher that she said it was the other child and i was beginning to believe her - because of the grounding, etc - i didn't think she would continue doing it out of defiance. the teacher started keeping a closer eye on them and told me it was in fact the other child pressuring her (saying, "let's play boyfriend and gf - and i won't be your friend if you don't, etc). - and she caught the other child doing the same thing with a different child in the bathroom.

after that, i just told my daughter to talk to her friend and explain to her if she tried it again that she was getting in trouble over it. if that didn't work, i told her to tell the teacher immediately instead of participating. it stopped shortly after the "culprit" was identified. the other child's mother and grandmother tried to blame it on my child (but they took a different approach by telling her kissing girls was nasty, and they didn't ground her or anything). i'm not saying grounding was the right solution (even though i did it) but i didn't know what else to do. it was happening often and the other child's family was making a scene about it.

it can be a sticky situation - it's normal to experiment, but if it continues then you have to get to the bottom of what's really happening and come up with a plan. the teacher did tell the other child's family that it was their child who was doing the initiating and had been caught with another child - which didn't go over well because they were all like, "my daughter isn't a *******!" unfortunately, parents don't have to submit to IQ tests before breeding.

i wouldn't worry about the act itself, but instead try to get to the bottom of why it continues (if it does) and talk to the teacher about what you've done, what your child has told you, and what she can do as far as watching the two together. my child's teacher knew i was taking action so when it would happen again, she knew it wasn't because i hadn't addressed the problem. try not to place blame when you discuss it because you never really know the root of the "problem."

i see this was posted a couple/few weeks ago. i'd love an update if you read this!
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HeatherB 10:07 AM 05-14-2010
ITA with you here!

Originally Posted by grandmom:
Dr. play for 4 year olds is normal. It's just as normal - and just as socially UNacceptable for us adults- as biting is for a 2 year old.

Now, perhaps one of the boys was at the doctor recently in preparation of Kindergarten. Kids do what is done to them. So they come home and play doctor. No big deal.

The big deal comes when adults get all up about it. Then the kids start thinking about why and they explore more. Just like any other behavior that gets our attention. So I just tell the kids to go "clean up the puzzle area" or something, and then keep them apart for a while.

Unfortunately in my state, any physical touch like this is reportable. And, quite unfortunately, that report stays in the kids' file f-o-r-e-v-e-r. Even the 'victim' of this play.

My solution. No doctor kits of any kind. No doctor play of any kind. No babydolls with body parts. All shirts/shorts on even in the sprinkler. I don't ever want to make that kind of report.

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Unregistered 01:42 PM 03-21-2011
I just read this post, as well as the post about a 4 yr old girl whose best friend was initiating kissing multiple times.

I have a family member who has worked for DHS and unfortunately that is a very good sign that the other child was probably the victim of sexual abuse (which is why, Grandmom, this type of behavior Must be reported, especially if it is a continuous occurrence).

Kissing at 4yrs, if it is a once or twice thing that stops and isn't a hidden thing, is pretty normal. But if it accompanied by showing or touching private parts then something has most likely happened to take the innocence of the "perperator" and just as Grandmom noted, kids do what has been done to them.

You didn't say Anything about "playing doctor" and if the boys had been doing that, then I think your son would have used those words to let you know what was going on.

This is really sad to read, and I hope it has been resolved.
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mac60 05:33 PM 03-21-2011
Many many years ago, like in the early 1980's, I was driving down the street and saw 2 little kids, boy and girl, approx age of 4 on the grass between the street and the sidewalk. The girl was laying down on her back with legs spread apart, the little boy, well, his hands were where they didn't belong. I looked and thought oh my gosh that is terrible. I didn't stop, but drove around the block and they were still engaging in inappropriate behavior, I laid on the horn and they jumped up.....I don't believe that because a child does this, that they have been sexually abused. That is rediculous. Kids do unexpected things.
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dEHmom 06:35 AM 03-22-2011
I agree that just because kissing or something like that happens, does not mean there is sexual abuse happenings, maybe they came across mom/dad's videos or magazines, etc.

BUT I think the consideration should be there, as often this is one of the good indicators that some sort of inappropriate behavior is/has taken place for this child. Doesn't mean it's mom/dad, could be friends of family, or other family members. Some families you would never expect to be, but could be part of a cult. YOU NEVER KNOW!

It's hard to know whether you should start pointing fingers or not, but truth is, I'd rather investigate, and come to a finding that sexual abuse is NOT happening, than assume it is not happening and it IS.

Very fine line here, and a child should never suffer. Often they are threatened and will not say anything, and will even lie about it. Sometimes the perp even drugs the child so they won't see them or remember it happening. It's disgusting, and it makes me sick! Some people even raise them to believe it's normal, look at Eddie Lee Sexton, HORRIBLE!!!! For those of you who do not know about Eddie Lee Sexton, read this book...



Another book of great interest to people who deal with children


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Unregistered 10:34 AM 03-22-2011
This is a hard one. I completely feel for the parents and children in this situation because my child has been in similar situations - mooning, exposing himself but never any touching involved. Each time, my child told me that the other boys in class were telling him to do it. I was always frustrated and embarrassed because the teachers were never able to follow through with a complete report - they never could tell me exactly everything that happened so I never found out if the other boys were really telling him to do it or if he was doing it because he thought it was funny. They never once interviewed or talked with the other boys or their parents. It was very frustrating because the daycare was unwilling to work with us, but they were more than happy to punish him. These were all behaviors that he never did outside of daycare and he is regularly around other children his same age on play dates and outside.

He's VERY modest about nakedness around anyone but me, his father and his peditrician. Funny how after we left the daycare because of that group of boys and what they were being allowed to get away with, that the behavior stopped completely overnight. I still believe my child to this day - that the other boys were telling him to do it and he was doing to fit in or to make them happy or to prevent them from bullying him further - because I found out that one of the boy's older sisters were telling the boys to do bad things at daycare one day and they were trying to blame it on my child - except that they didn't count on the new kid to rat them all out - I interviewed the children myself that day because I got sick of the lies.

Kids are VERY impressionable that way. They don't know things are wrong - they only know what they see or hear, etc and they are desperate to fit in during childhood. I have to say that it's not impossible but rare if there were any sexual abuse concerns in your situation. I don't think it's warranted to pull out an all out assult on the other child. These behaviors are completely normal - though even in saying that, I wonder where kids get that stuff from? How do they know to even do it and where do they get their ideas? I would start with your pediatrician first and a good toddler guide book. I think a calm head and a good discussion with the other parent directly (NOT daycare) would help you immensely. And I would highly recommend thinking it over and breathing on it and sleeping on it for a couple of days/nights in order to clear your head and to calm down.

I understand you're frustrated but there's lots more to come as he gets older. I would be concerned if it happens repeatedly with the same child. And after a while, if you're still really upset and concerned, pull your child out of there and find a new daycare.
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Unregistered 01:10 PM 03-23-2011
Something very similar happened to my nephew, not just kissing, when he was in preschool a few years ago. In his situation, the other child was also acting out in other ways. I believe the center was required to report it, and the family of the instigator was investigated. It turns out, the other child was being abused at home. I'm not saying this is what's going on in your child's situation, it could be innocent. Be glad there is surveillance tape, and take it slowly. The center needs to treat this very seriously--for both kids, not just your son.
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Unregistered 01:50 PM 06-29-2011
I found your thread as I have a 5 yr old daughter who told me about the "game" she and a boy played at dc. She didn't want to tell me and when I asked for details of the game she got very upset, started crying and begged me not to tell dc.

Now details are from my daughter.
there were pants pulled down.
touching - answer changes from I don't know to no.
who started the game - the boy.
how many times have you played this game - for a long time.
when I called dc and told her about the game dc said my daughter initiated it.

I went back to talk to my daughter and she did say she wanted to go downstairs but didn't know they were going to play game.

So both parents and dc know about game. my concern is I asked for follow up communication in regards to what was done the next day or steps going forward to give me assurance that this will not happen again. Dc was upset and i know feels terrible and also worried. But what is the responsibility/liability of dc in this situation? according to my daughter the kids can play down stairs by themselves when dc is upstair. DC says since they are school age she doesn't have to be downstairs since she can hear them. How can I be sure this will not happen again?

I'm new to this. I understand curiosity but if supervision was more diligent would this have happened for a "long time?"
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jen 02:56 PM 06-29-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I found your thread as I have a 5 yr old daughter who told me about the "game" she and a boy played at dc. She didn't want to tell me and when I asked for details of the game she got very upset, started crying and begged me not to tell dc.

Now details are from my daughter.
there were pants pulled down.
touching - answer changes from I don't know to no.
who started the game - the boy.
how many times have you played this game - for a long time.
when I called dc and told her about the game dc said my daughter initiated it.

I went back to talk to my daughter and she did say she wanted to go downstairs but didn't know they were going to play game.

So both parents and dc know about game. my concern is I asked for follow up communication in regards to what was done the next day or steps going forward to give me assurance that this will not happen again. Dc was upset and i know feels terrible and also worried. But what is the responsibility/liability of dc in this situation? according to my daughter the kids can play down stairs by themselves when dc is upstair. DC says since they are school age she doesn't have to be downstairs since she can hear them. How can I be sure this will not happen again?

I'm new to this. I understand curiosity but if supervision was more diligent would this have happened for a "long time?"
Am I understanding you correctly...the daycare provider was aware of the event and didn't tell you about it?

If that is correct, I would pull my child TODAY. Not because kids do what they do, but because of the lack of communication.
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Cat Herder 03:01 PM 06-29-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
according to my daughter the kids can play down stairs by themselves when dc is upstair. DC says since they are school age she doesn't have to be downstairs since she can hear them. How can I be sure this will not happen again?
Here it is against regs for a provider to be in a different room that the DCK's.

It is different in each State, check your regs to be sure.

IMHO, I would not choose childcare that is unsupervised other than for brief potty breaks/grabbing food/drinks to serve. It defeats the purpose of taking them there

School aged kids can get into much bigger trouble than even the littles in my experience.

It is legal in many states, however.
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Michael 05:19 PM 06-29-2011
It appears unregistered is located in Minnesota:

Minnesota Rules, part 9502.0315 DEFINITIONS.
Subp. 29a. Supervision. "Supervision" means a caregiver being within sight or hearing of an infant, toddler, or preschooler at all times so that the caregiver is capable of intervening to protect the health and safety of the child. For the school age child, it means a caregiver being available for assistance and care so that the child's health and safety is protected.
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Cat Herder 06:14 PM 06-29-2011
Originally Posted by Michael:
It appear unregistered is located in Minnesota:

Minnesota Rules, part 9502.0315 DEFINITIONS.
Subp. 29a. Supervision. "Supervision" means a caregiver being within sight or hearing of an infant, toddler, or preschooler at all times so that the caregiver is capable of intervening to protect the health and safety of the child. [b]For the school age child, it means a caregiver being available for assistance and care so that the child's health and safety is protected.
Yikes!!! So as long as she was home they could go anywhere they wanted within yelling distance? They could be playing at the neighbors in theory.
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jen 06:58 PM 06-29-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
Yikes!!! So as long as she was home they could go anywhere they wanted within yelling distance? They could be playing at the neighbors in theory.
Yep...in MN we can let our school agers go for bike rides, go to the park, etc. as long as we have a permission slip to allow them to do so. I have a 5th going in to 6th grader who is the same age as my son. They frequently go to the park across the street or ride their bikes around the neighborhood. I've got a permission slip from Mom and the States OK.

Where I have issues with this is: common sense tells me that a 5th or 6th grader is one thing, but a kindergardener is another. BUT...a child is considered school age here in May the summer before they start school. YIKES.

I'd still pull a child if I found out my provider failed to tell me about a situation such as this. I'm the parent, I want to use this as a teaching opportunity with my child. I'd be livid if I found out a provider kept something like this from me.
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Unregistered 09:22 PM 06-29-2011
Thanks for the replies. the situation has repeated itself today as I was notified by my dc. two children alone but being watched by dc so she could understand what is happening. My daughter was the instigator (ugh!) and played games to get boy to play the "tickle game". He didn't tickle her private part and she in turn grabbed his private part and the boy said "ouch" DC intervened immediately and separate children to talk to them.
I still can't believe this happened today.

SO...my daughter still sticks to her story that its a game and just with this boy. She said no one taught her this and she's very sorry. This morning she said she will not play that game anymore but she did the first chance when they were alone.

DC thinks someone that knows my daughter outside of dc is abusing or teaching her these games. She still says no one taught her. DC wants me to put daughter in scenarios where I can get proof that something wrong is going on. How am I supposed to do that? Set up family members with nanny cams and monitors and wait to see what happens? Oh I'm sure my sanity will stay in tact during this process.

daughter is very upset about it. She's afraid she's going to get in trouble. Says she loves me, can't tell me, doesn't know who taught her this game, no one taught her this game, just the kids at dc. She requested I take her to a girl police officer tonight and could I help her talk to them to tell them what happened? WHAT?! what if she says a name and I find out someone is hurting my child? Police have obligations. But they were great to her and her story remained the same and wanted to make sure she wasn't in trouble. They told her she was very brave. They would make sure she is safe and help her anyway they could. They took her on a tour of the station, gave her police tattoos and a teddy bear that she went to sleep with and is holding on tight. They are going to set me up with Child resources at a hospital and advised not to go to dc until further notice. On the way home she asked me what did the police tell you when they talked to you. I told her that they said she gets to stay home tomorrow as today was a tough day and we are to do something fun and be happy.

My husband and I are beside ourselves in confusion. How? Why? Is there a who? and Now What?

so there you have it...that's the story and as of the moment, my 5 yr old daughter is sticking to it.
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dEHmom 04:41 AM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Thanks for the replies. the situation has repeated itself today as I was notified by my dc. two children alone but being watched by dc so she could understand what is happening. My daughter was the instigator (ugh!) and played games to get boy to play the "tickle game". He didn't tickle her private part and she in turn grabbed his private part and the boy said "ouch" DC intervened immediately and separate children to talk to them.
I still can't believe this happened today.

SO...my daughter still sticks to her story that its a game and just with this boy. She said no one taught her this and she's very sorry. This morning she said she will not play that game anymore but she did the first chance when they were alone.

DC thinks someone that knows my daughter outside of dc is abusing or teaching her these games. She still says no one taught her. DC wants me to put daughter in scenarios where I can get proof that something wrong is going on. How am I supposed to do that? Set up family members with nanny cams and monitors and wait to see what happens? Oh I'm sure my sanity will stay in tact during this process.

daughter is very upset about it. She's afraid she's going to get in trouble. Says she loves me, can't tell me, doesn't know who taught her this game, no one taught her this game, just the kids at dc. She requested I take her to a girl police officer tonight and could I help her talk to them to tell them what happened? WHAT?! what if she says a name and I find out someone is hurting my child? Police have obligations. But they were great to her and her story remained the same and wanted to make sure she wasn't in trouble. They told her she was very brave. They would make sure she is safe and help her anyway they could. They took her on a tour of the station, gave her police tattoos and a teddy bear that she went to sleep with and is holding on tight. They are going to set me up with Child resources at a hospital and advised not to go to dc until further notice. On the way home she asked me what did the police tell you when they talked to you. I told her that they said she gets to stay home tomorrow as today was a tough day and we are to do something fun and be happy.

My husband and I are beside ourselves in confusion. How? Why? Is there a who? and Now What?

so there you have it...that's the story and as of the moment, my 5 yr old daughter is sticking to it.
wow! I am so sorry you are going through this. Sometimes children overhear things that the adults have no idea is going on. They could be laying in their beds, and everyone thinks they are asleep and they are not.

It is possible that if she's seen a nudie magazine, movie etc hidden somewhere, they can get a few ideas about sex and different scenarios. Or if someone has told a dirty joke, or story, they may have overheard it. There's so many what ifs. I hope everything works out well for you and your family. Best of luck
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Geegee 04:57 AM 06-30-2011
I am now registered as I think this place is going to help me get through this.
FYI - she is not returning to dc. DC says it was right after breakfast that my daughter wanted to go downstairs. I know my child enough to confidently say that she did not wake up Monday morning and thought of this game herself. I agree that it could be so many reasons or impressions of where she learned this. What bothers me is dc insisting that sex abuse is involved. Don't insist until it is confirmed. I will also not set my child up in scenario that may cause possible further harm.

What bothers me is that regardless if she can't remember "who started it" or how she learned it, or that she's afraid to tell me is that she insists she learned it at dc. That's all I need to hear to know that it is not a safe place for her to be and obviously not enough distractions and supervision to prevent this sort of activity.

I contacted a summer program and they have been very helpful so should have a new place for her with lots of kids, lots of distractions and hopefully answers by then or at least a plan of moving forward with minimal or no damage to my child.
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Cat Herder 06:59 AM 06-30-2011
Children's sexual development has normal age appropriate milestones just like their ability to read, write and count.

I don't know why it is so taboo to address it...

Masturbation is natural, kids don't see it as an ethical or moral issue. Mutual masturbation within groups of kids that are inappropriately supervised is going to occur. Think "Blue Lagoon".

Check out some books on Anthropology of other cultures where it is normal and expected. This is a human trait.

This is a good place to start.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/...velopment.html

Obviously be aware of any signs of abuse, but some can really over react to all things sexual in our culture.
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MN Mom 08:29 AM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
Children's sexual development has normal age appropriate milestones just like their ability to read, write and count.

I don't know why it is so taboo to address it...

Masturbation is natural, kids don't see it as an ethical or moral issue. Mutual masturbation within groups of kids that are inappropriately supervised is going to occur. Think "Blue Lagoon".

Check out some books on Anthropology of other cultures where it is normal and expected. This is a human trait.

This is a good place to start.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/...velopment.html

Obviously be aware of any signs of abuse, but some can really over react to all things sexual in our culture.
This! I took quite a few human sexuality courses in college. Children are not oblivious to sexual desires or play. Once they figure out something feels good, they do it, and have no idea or concept of the social stigma attached. It could be solo our group play, and its more common than you think.

Think about it...little kids like to mimic their elders.
They play house.
There is a mommy and daddy in a house.
The mommy and daddy have babies (some 5 year olds know HOW to mimic the whole process)
Mommy and daddy sometimes kiss.

etc.....

I'm not saying there isn't sexual abuse going on...I'm just agreeing with those who realize this is also NORMAL childhood behavior.
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Blackcat31 09:21 AM 06-30-2011
I had a little boy a few years back when I first opened who had told his dad (a 6'5" State Trooper with a VERY somber personality) that another dcb asked to see his privates. So this dad in all his authority called me at home late in the evening and asked if we could talk...gulp....

He told me how another kid had showed another kid their privates and now this same kid had asked him to show his privates. All these boys were the same age. I talked wiht the dad about normal behavior and all and how there is no way anything funky could possibly be going on since my daycare homeis fairly small and wide open so I have no little nooks and crannies where "funny stuff" can happen without me being aware of it. Of course, sexual abuse and good/bad touch and the whole nine yards came up. After a tense conversation, in which I felt completely interogated (minus any water boarding...LOL!!! ) we hung up and left any further discussion/investigation to continue for the next day.

So the next day during drop off, all three boys happen to be there at the same time with parents.....I thought that it was the perfect opportunity to talk with parents and boys together so I asked the "offending" child why he had asked Mr. State Trooper's son to see his privates and without any hesitation the kid says "Well, he keeps saying he has a spiderman tatoo and I don't see one so it must be under his underwear so I wanted him to show me."

Perfect example of how we, as adults read into things when sometimes the situation needs to be looked at through a child's perspective and anyone who knows anything about cognitive and emotional/social development knows a child's perspective vs an adult's perspective is sooooo far apart it isn't even comparable.
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Country Kids 09:46 AM 06-30-2011
When you asked the offender in front of all the parents didn't you violate the privacy act of letting the parent know who did it. What I don't get about how we aren't suppose to tell the parents who did what is because all they have to do is ask the child and they will tell you.
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Blackcat31 10:11 AM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
When you asked the offender in front of all the parents didn't you violate the privacy act of letting the parent know who did it. What I don't get about how we aren't suppose to tell the parents who did what is because all they have to do is ask the child and they will tell you.
Nah, these kids were friends and each kid was old enough to be verbal so it was the kids themselves that told their parents who it was, I only finished up the situation. Had the families not known who or whom, I would never have said anything. But good point, I try not to say who did what but in a small family daycare, keeping that kind of privacy is next to impossible so I try to never be the one who says names but once a kid lets the cat out of the bag, all's fair game.
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Geegee 02:21 PM 06-30-2011
the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?
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Cat Herder 02:54 PM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Geegee:
the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?
Oh, hun.... NO, I meant the provider may have over-reacted...not you. It is common for people to assume the worst when it comes to sexual behavior.

I still think you made the right choice.

I wanted you to read the article so you felt more comfortable knowing that most of what your daughter was initiating was normal, expected behavior. I did not want you to feel you were somehow to blame or she was somehow wrong for it.

If there was other stuff...that should ALWAYS be investigated.
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Blackcat31 03:11 PM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Geegee:
the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?
No, you are NOT crazy for wanting to move her. I would have done the exact thing. I think that you will find that your daughter will behave differently in a different setting so that is good. Plus you will get another perspective. Kind of like what you were saying about an environment that "allows" this to happen/continue. I know allow isn't the right word but I think you know what I mean.

I also want to say that just because she has been in the biz for 30+ years does not make her an expert unless she is educated and trained in diagnosing and stating things as such. I have heard all sorts of things from kids...things I probably shouldn't hear but I do not immediately think that it means abuse let alone being wise or educated enough to state that it was from a family member? I wonder how she came to this conclusion without ever having brought to your attention the things said by your daughter that led her to believe she was sexually abused by a family member.
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nannyde 03:27 PM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Geegee:
the reason we took the escalator to a higher level is because dc says she had a strong sense from actions and answers from questions that my daughter was being abused. Not just by anyone but by a family member, this is a serious allegation. She has been a dc for 30+ years and was telling me the horror stories and that I needed a plan. So what I initially determined a game of show me, I'll show you took a quick turn.

A situation was created at dc so the environment invited repeat behavior. I was informed that children were not going to be left alone. i found out that this was not the case. They were left alone and my daughter wanted to play the game again. I am the one now who does not feel safe with my child being there. I want her to be in an environment that is supervised and will not promote behavior. They were probably bored and thought of something new and interesting. And yes who knows where they mimiced it from and now from my week's experience I have the tool and resources to teach and learn more so our family can grow from this.

So I am over-reacting to wanting to move her to an alternative dc after this?
It's a common thought that children this age SHOULD be able to play without having an adult directly supervising them. The truth is that once you get to age five their need for visual and auditory supervision INCREASES not decreases. In child care they need IMHO an adult within a few feet of them at all times.

Once these kids had ONE incident she should have NEVER allowed them alone unsupervised. When kids tell you what they will do you HAVE to believe it.

Don't let her bully you into thinking this whole thing generates from your home life or your world. She may be right but at this point you don't have any way to know. You have asked for help and will keep your ears open and your radar set on high. You may get an answer... you may not.

One of the biggest problems in child care is providers wanting the job to be easier than it really is. Down through the ages we have been taught that the older a kid gets the less adult they need. Our regulations sanction that with very high child to adult ratios after the age of five in most states.

It may have been true back in the day when there was a societal understanding that stuff was going to happen and kids were going to get in trouble or get hurt. It USED to be okay for kids to be bored and have to find their own entertainment.

Now we have a generation where the cost of ANYTHING happening is so high. We also have a generation of kids who have been raised on VERY high stimulation (tv, video games, noise toys, adults playing with them and "educating" them at a really young age). To expect that once they hit five or older that now they can HANDLE making their own entertainment and having LESS adult is seriously rediculous. We have bred kids that get needier and require more supervision as they age ... NOT LESS.

There's a reason why SO many providers don't take school aged kids. I'm NOT knocking you as a parent... don't think that at all. I'm just saying that we all need to have some REAL conversations about the REAL side effects of the way kids are being raised these days EVERYWHERE they go... not just home.

If we don't get back to good sleep, good exercise, good nutrition, good supervision, self entertainment etc... we will end up with incidences like this happening younger and younger when the kids are bored. We will also end up with a ton of providers who can't accept the work that needs to be done and the level of care these kids need.

Kids have to be TAUGHT how to self entertain and how to need less adult. You have to supervise them until they actually can do it. Adults need to recognize when they really CAN do it and when they can't. These two CAN'T. That's a fact.

Your daughter may have had something happen to her ... and that you need to stay steady on ... but there is a good chance that these kids have been left unsupervised for a LONG time every day and they have come to this behavior because they are unable to really entertain themselves. They both may not be capable of coming up with acceptable LOW stimulus play so when put together they go to this to just have something EXCITING to do.

I'm just guessing... so just put my advice in a little corner of your brain. Listen to what she has said as a possiblity and what I have said as a possiblity.
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Geegee 03:32 PM 06-30-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
Oh, hun.... NO, I meant the provider may have over-reacted...not you. It is common for people to assume the worst when it comes to sexual behavior.

I still think you made the right choice.

I wanted you to read the article so you felt more comfortable knowing that most of what your daughter was initiating was normal, expected behavior. I did not want you to feel you were somehow to blame or she was somehow wrong for it.

If there was other stuff...that should ALWAYS be investigated.
Thank you! I was reading as much as I could find last night about articles related to the one you shared. and each time i was thinking, but she's normal why all this fuss? But me being a determined and protective mother of someone who is labeling my child as an abuse victim I'm going to do something about it and go to resources who know how to deal with this. The woman who met with my daughter was so good with her and also amazing with me. I'm a first time mom and growing up we did not discuss body parts or what boundaries are. I haven't seen my first What's a Boy? What's a Girl movie until I was in 4th grade. OH so you can teach body parts to children?! How come I didn't know this? I'm SO glad I know now and even more relieved!

I have to send a termination letter tomorrow. My dc has provided care for my daughter since she's been 4 months old and I'm grateful for the such care and want to be considerate in the delivery. I am not giving 2 weeks notice as daughter will not be returning. Not sure based on the situation if she's going to demand it 2 weeks pay. I don't want to tell her that the police and a counselor advised immediate removal. My husband and I will sacrifice the cost as it doesn't matter in the end as having our daughter in a safe environment is priceless.
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sharlan 03:39 PM 06-30-2011
I would move my child, if for no other reason, to break the cycle.

Just because your provider has been in business for 30 yrs, it does not make her an authority on sex abuse. People who should know better can cause far more damage by improperly interrogating children. Anybody remember the McMartin case in SoCal 30 yrs ago?

IMHO, your provider is making a mountain out of a molehill.
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nannyde 04:49 AM 07-01-2011
Originally Posted by sharlan:
I would move my child, if for no other reason, to break the cycle.

Just because your provider has been in business for 30 yrs, it does not make her an authority on sex abuse. People who should know better can cause far more damage by improperly interrogating children. Anybody remember the McMartin case in SoCal 30 yrs ago?

IMHO, your provider is making a mountain out of a molehill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial


The trial lasted seven years and cost $15 million, the longest and most expensive criminal case in the history of the United States legal system, and ultimately resulted in no convictions
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Geegee 10:49 AM 07-01-2011
Originally Posted by sharlan:
I would move my child, if for no other reason, to break the cycle.

Just because your provider has been in business for 30 yrs, it does not make her an authority on sex abuse. People who should know better can cause far more damage by improperly interrogating children. Anybody remember the McMartin case in SoCal 30 yrs ago?

IMHO, your provider is making a mountain out of a molehill.
Here's a question - what's the deal with dc manipulating a situation where the two kids who played the game to be alone again and spy on them to see if inappropriate behavior would repeat itself? I mean what's the logic to this?

From my understanding if children are showing or touching privates they are to be supervised more than before and to ensure they are not in a setting to do this behavior again. I'm still dumbfounded that my child was set up for failure and then I'm the one who is told, Oh I think your child is being sex abused in your family.

I know she's removed from daycare since this event but she may come back to me insisting on the two weeks pay which I don't feel responsible for. The police dept advised immediate removal based on their interview with my daughter. I just want to end it, learn from it and have daughter start a new, fun experience at summer camp where she's very excited to attend. We visited today so she could see where she is going and already packed her new backpack.
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Cat Herder 12:21 PM 07-01-2011
I know it is a tough situation.

The important issue is resolved. You daughter is going to a better suited environment for her where this issue is much less likely to happen again.

As far as the contract and money, it is debatable.

IMHO:

1. If it is in your contract that your child would be directly supervised and this incident was the first you had been made aware that she was not, then it is a breach of contract and the Provider is out of luck.

2. If it is in your contract that the kids were not directly supervised, on a different floor, and you still chose to have her there it is not a breach of contract and you owe her.

3. If you signed a contract that did not specify how the kids were supervised but clearly outlined the two week termination policy, you still owe her. (I never liked this, because the only way to learn it is to get hit with it, but it is true.)

I know it did not turn out to be the best choice for your daughter, but you still have to remember that in your State she was within Regulations. If it is not in the contract, it does not exist when it comes to small claims court and payment issues. They only want to see proof of attendance, the contract and the amount owed.

In the future (and for others reading) remember It is so important to read and understand your contract. You really have to pay attention and do your homework. Don't go by what is said during the interview as much as what is in the contract.
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Geegee 12:50 PM 07-01-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
I know it is a tough situation.

The important issue is resolved. You daughter is going to a better suited environment for her where this issue is much less likely to happen again.

As far as the contract and money, it is debatable.

IMHO:

1. If it is in your contract that your child would be directly supervised and this incident was the first you had been made aware that she was not, then it is a breach of contract and the Provider is out of luck.

2. If it is in your contract that the kids were not directly supervised, on a different floor, and you still chose to have her there it is not a breach of contract and you owe her.

3. If you signed a contract that did not specify how the kids were supervised but clearly outlined the two week termination policy, you still owe her. (I never liked this, because the only way to learn it is to get hit with it, but it is true.)

I know it did not turn out to be the best choice for your daughter, but you still have to remember that in your State she was within Regulations. If it is not in the contract, it does not exist when it comes to small claims court and payment issues. They only want to see proof of attendance, the contract and the amount owed.

In the future (and for others reading) remember It is so important to read and understand your contract. You really have to pay attention and do your homework. Don't go by what is said during the interview as much as what is in the contract.
Thank you for this information. If we are bound by contact and she requires payment, she will receive her it. I did request to be excused from the 2 weeks so have to see what the reply is as there is no specifics about supervision. Other than the state supervision of MN which is that we discussed earlier (within hearing distance). I know dc never wanted or promoted this behavior, it happened and now resolving any business matters. Better go water my money tree now!
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Cat Herder 12:56 PM 07-01-2011
I am sorry, hun. It does stink....

Maybe you could write in about changing your States Regs to include supervision? IDK, worth a shot?

I'd leave out your providers name, though. No need kicking a hornets nest, IYKWIM?
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Unregistered 02:34 PM 07-01-2011
I'm sorry this situation is happening, but what I don't understand is the anger and blaming of the daycare provider and the talk of flaking out of payment. The behavior your child showed IS consistent with being sexually molested. Whether further investigation can clarify the matter for you or not remains to be seen. From reading your posts it seems you are angry that the DC stated this basic fact to you. Would you rather she just blow it off when someone could be hurting your child? It seems that some introspection could be helpful for you. Being molested does not make a child a bad person. Your reaction seems like you feel the DC is labeling your child as a deviant... when in reality it is the person who taught your child this "game" who is the deviant.
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Unregistered 06:46 PM 04-01-2012
I recently found out from my son the nephew, it started simply with "I Don't like Uncle ******* and then I was informed only by my son , what should I Do? very upset for my son.
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Unregistered 11:28 AM 04-04-2012
Okay. Freaky when this stuff happens but kids will explore. Sure it was all innocent. It is a matter of having a dialogue with your child of what is and isn't appropriate behavior. I'm sure that once the tapes are shown you will see the kids were just playing. As parents and providers you need to remain calm and rational. Going to the extreme of sexual abuse over normal child development and interest can be damaging to the child. My question is where we're the daycare staff? The kids were obviously out of sight longer than a few minutes to kiss and pull down pants. So that's who you should be concerned about, not the kids exploring their bodies.
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Tags:2010, 4 year old, behavior, doctor, expose, pants, privates, read your contract, sexual, sexual development, supervision - active vs. passive, supervision - what age
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