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Unregistered 12:37 PM 06-07-2017
I work in a dc and every year, we take the kids to vbs at a local church, over the past year or two I've heard the other teachers talk about how at the end of the week, they will ask the kids if they've been saved and if they say no, they keep the kids and let them ask Jesus into their hearts while the others attend the party. Usually it involves some if our dc kids as well. Here's my question, if a parent finds out about what's going on and comes back and says my child said x. What do you say?
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Blackcat31 12:40 PM 06-07-2017
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I work in a dc and every year, we take the kids to vbs at a local church, over the past year or two I've heard the other teachers talk about how at the end of the week, they will ask the kids if they've been saved and if they say no, they keep the kids and let them ask Jesus into their hearts while the others attend the party. Usually it involves some if our dc kids as well. Here's my question, if a parent finds out about what's going on and comes back and says my child said x. What do you say?
...in regards to the child attending VBS or about what VBS is asking the kids?

Either way, I would think you have permission from parents that allows their child to attend this VBS program?

If so, what do the parents think happens or is asked/discussed at vacation BIBLE school?
I would assume that type of convo is appropriate at/during a religious environment.
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Cat Herder 12:55 PM 06-07-2017
The kids said the party is withheld unless they claim to have been "saved"? Like training a performing monkey with a treat?

I would simply have the parent ask the child about it, out of your presence and let them take the lead they feel is appropriate. Slippery slope stuff. Unless, of course, you heard the adult saying that to the child, then I'd recommend validating what the child is saying to their parent.
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Pestle 02:45 PM 06-07-2017
I grew up in this and it's toxic. I'm really opposed to VBS programs, because I'm an extremely religious person and I think this is the wrong way to teach religion--by slapping stickers and midi rock songs all over some no-brainer concepts, and then using bribery and shame to pressure kids into praying the Sinner's Prayer at the end of the program. What if they do go through with it? What did it actually mean to them? Do they have any support in learning real church discipline? Is this just a magic incantation to ensure they get into heaven?

Yeah, I have some childhood trauma.

If the parents have signed on to it and you're also in favor of it, then whatever. But have they actually signed on--do they know that it's a program aimed at conversion?
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Blackcat31 02:59 PM 06-07-2017
Originally Posted by Pestle:
I grew up in this and it's toxic. I'm really opposed to VBS programs, because I'm an extremely religious person and I think this is the wrong way to teach religion--by slapping stickers and midi rock songs all over some no-brainer concepts, and then using bribery and shame to pressure kids into praying the Sinner's Prayer at the end of the program. What if they do go through with it? What did it actually mean to them? Do they have any support in learning real church discipline? Is this just a magic incantation to ensure they get into heaven?

Yeah, I have some childhood trauma.

If the parents have signed on to it and you're also in favor of it, then whatever. But have they actually signed on--do they know that it's a program aimed at conversion?


That is exactly what I am wondering?
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finsup 03:23 PM 06-07-2017
I'm a Christian myself and run a Christian program, the parents that come here would have no issue with VBS. That particular one however, um what?! We plant seeds, help children understand how much Jesus loves them, but requiring them to accept him to get a party?! It doesn't work like that! My son will be going to VBS for the first time this year, and it seemed great. Being new to VBS, I'm really hoping this isn't the norm so to speak.
But if the parents are all aware and on board with this, then let them have the discussion with the kids. They definitely should know ahead of time what the program is and the end goal before you take them though.
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jenboo 04:04 PM 06-07-2017
Originally Posted by finsup:
I'm a Christian myself and run a Christian program, the parents that come here would have no issue with VBS. That particular one however, um what?! We plant seeds, help children understand how much Jesus loves them, but requiring them to accept him to get a party?! It doesn't work like that! My son will be going to VBS for the first time this year, and it seemed great. Being new to VBS, I'm really hoping this isn't the norm so to speak.
But if the parents are all aware and on board with this, then let them have the discussion with the kids. They definitely should know ahead of time what the program is and the end goal before you take them though.

I've done vbs for years and never have the children been forced to invite Jesus into their hearts. If they did it on their own, awesome! If they don't, no big deal. Seeds have been planted. That's the goal.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 04:37 PM 06-07-2017
I've never heard of a VBS program run that way. Could you find another VBS program for your daycare kids to attend...
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hwichlaz 05:10 PM 06-07-2017
Our VBS isn't run that way...but the one at the same church that runs the local AWANAs program is....and so is their AWANA's program. I walked in at the end to them giving bibles to children who'd asked to be saved and praying for their family members who were not saved. My child doesn't attend there anymore...I won't have anyone scaring her telling her that my ex is going to hell because he's not saved. She's 7.
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Pestle 11:44 AM 06-08-2017
Originally Posted by hwichlaz:
Our VBS isn't run that way...but the one at the same church that runs the local AWANAs program is....and so is their AWANA's program. I walked in at the end to them giving bibles to children who'd asked to be saved and praying for their family members who were not saved. My child doesn't attend there anymore...I won't have anyone scaring her telling her that my ex is going to hell because he's not saved. She's 7.
AWANA. Yep. Did a few tours there, too. Committing out-of-context snippets of Scripture to short-term memory, spitting them back at the teacher, getting a peg for the pin on my vest. I don't remember a single verse, but I do remember the songs for Cubbies and Sparks. And, as a non-athletic person, I remember the shame from losing every relay race every Wednesday night for years. The kids on my team would groan and boo me, and the teen volunteers would yell at me to "try harder." Nobody loves you when you're a klutz.

If anybody's looking for a reputable way to educate groups of small children in the faith, check out Godly Play. It's a Montessori catechetical program. (There's a Catholic version called Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, but since my husband's Catholic and I'm not, we're starting to prep with the more generically Christian version.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvfVf13GhYA
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DaveA 12:55 PM 06-08-2017
Never heard of AWANA, but grew up in VBS yearly and helped with a few over the years. Never heard anything like that from one. OYE
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hwichlaz 01:56 PM 06-08-2017
Originally Posted by DaveA:
Never heard of AWANA, but grew up in VBS yearly and helped with a few over the years. Never heard anything like that from one. OYE
It's like co-ed Jesus-Scouts. They earn badges for memorization.
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Mad_Pistachio 03:02 PM 06-08-2017
Originally Posted by Pestle:
If anybody's looking for a reputable way to educate groups of small children in the faith, check out Godly Play. It's a Montessori catechetical program. (There's a Catholic version called Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, but since my husband's Catholic and I'm not, we're starting to prep with the more generically Christian version.)
Our church has been using Godly Play for a few years now for kids 4 and under. My daughter enjoyed it quite a bit.

VBS that bullies kids into repentance needs to lose V out of its acronym.
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finsup 03:08 PM 06-08-2017
Originally Posted by Pestle:
AWANA. Yep. Did a few tours there, too. Committing out-of-context snippets of Scripture to short-term memory, spitting them back at the teacher, getting a peg for the pin on my vest. I don't remember a single verse, but I do remember the songs for Cubbies and Sparks. And, as a non-athletic person, I remember the shame from losing every relay race every Wednesday night for years. The kids on my team would groan and boo me, and the teen volunteers would yell at me to "try harder." Nobody loves you when you're a klutz.

If anybody's looking for a reputable way to educate groups of small children in the faith, check out Godly Play. It's a Montessori catechetical program. (There's a Catholic version called Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, but since my husband's Catholic and I'm not, we're starting to prep with the more generically Christian version.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvfVf13GhYA
That stinks you didn't have a good experience with Awana, so many I know speak so highly of it. My son loves it, but we do go deeper then just memorizing for the sake of memorizing. I will definitely check out that program though! It sounds great!
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bklsmum 07:06 PM 06-08-2017
I would lose my S*** if I saw something like that happening with one of my kids or one of my daycare kids. So not ok!
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hwichlaz 07:59 PM 06-08-2017
Originally Posted by finsup:
That stinks you didn't have a good experience with Awana, so many I know speak so highly of it. My son loves it, but we do go deeper then just memorizing for the sake of memorizing. I will definitely check out that program though! It sounds great!
I oversimplified when describing our AWANA program....but it's still certainly run like a conversion program once you get past the cubbies in to sparks.
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Blackcat31 08:16 PM 06-08-2017
Regardless of what this religious organization teaches/believes I am still wondering if the parents of these daycare kids are aware their children are participating in a VBS program via their daycare.
That is odd to me.

I know child cares that are religious based but a child care (center or family) that utilizes a religious program as an activity?

If parents gave permission then it isn't an issue.
They gave permission.
But you said "if a parent finds out what's going on?"

Did the parents give permission for their child to participate in this VBS program?
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hwichlaz 08:49 PM 06-08-2017
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Regardless of what this religious organization teaches/believes I am still wondering if the parents of these daycare kids are aware their children are participating in a VBS program via their daycare.
That is odd to me.

I know child cares that are religious based but a child care (center or family) that utilizes a religious program as an activity?

If parents gave permission then it isn't an issue.
They gave permission.
But you said "if a parent finds out what's going on?"

Did the parents give permission for their child to participate in this VBS program?
I useed to take my daycare kids to VBS, because I was one of the people running it. But the parents all signed permission slips. I doubt any of the parents in this situation expected conversion tactics.
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finsup 04:04 AM 06-09-2017
Originally Posted by hwichlaz:
I oversimplified when describing our AWANA program....but it's still certainly run like a conversion program once you get past the cubbies in to sparks.
We started at sparks. I had no idea it was available to kids younger. The program isn't run by our home Church. But we were already Christians when we started it, and my son loves Jesus so they aren't really converting him to anything Now if you were a non-Christian and sent your child to it i could see how someone would feel like that. But I'd be surprised if any non Christian sent their child to Awana. That's a big commitment unlike VBS that's only one week out of the year.
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Blackcat31 06:35 AM 06-09-2017
Originally Posted by hwichlaz:
I useed to take my daycare kids to VBS, because I was one of the people running it. But the parents all signed permission slips. I doubt any of the parents in this situation expected conversion tactics.
That's assumptive, which is why I am asking.

I am not dissing or supporting any ONE religion or tactic.
(that's a personal topic) so what any of these parents expected or didn't expect is moot....IF they gave permission for their child to attend this program.

I won't take responsibility for a parent's lack of research for something they gave permission for. That's on the parent.

My concern here isn't what is or isn't being taught at this program but the fact that this daycare is taking kids to participate and it sounds like the parents aren't aware of it.

I'd be livid if I were one of these parents.....and from the way the OP worded her question/post it sounds like she is afraid the parents are going to find out.....

There wouldn't be anything to 'find out' about IF they knew and approved of their child participating.

Parent permission alleviates the liability of the daycare.
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midaycare 07:46 AM 06-09-2017
It's VBS...the entire purpose is conversion. The way that church is doing it sounds less than desirable, but...kind of to be expected, although maybe not that way.

As to AWANA, we have had wonderful experiences here. We don't currently use it because our church has it's own outstanding program that my son begs to go to.
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LysesKids 08:16 AM 06-09-2017
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I work in a dc and every year, we take the kids to vbs at a local church, over the past year or two I've heard the other teachers talk about how at the end of the week, they will ask the kids if they've been saved and if they say no, they keep the kids and let them ask Jesus into their hearts while the others attend the party. Usually it involves some if our dc kids as well. Here's my question, if a parent finds out about what's going on and comes back and says my child said x. What do you say?
I personally would have a huge problem with a daycare provider taking my kid to VBS because of how I taught religion to my kids; had it come up when my youngest was in childcare in the 90's... I was asked & said no and was told to find other care for a week - I found other childcare permanently because they broke their contract & were refusing me care

FYI, I was not told this was part of the program when I signed the contract so essentially the provider was planning on doing it regardless. I also had never signed the transport forms because she never took the kids anywhere before it had come up
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Unregistered 11:59 AM 06-11-2017
We have ALL school age parents to sign permission forms for these outings. We use to go to 2 VBS at one time I personally like the other church better than this one BUT the reason that we send our kids to this particular church as opposed to the other church is because they both fall on the same week plus thus particular church accepts children that are 4 years old to 6th grade and the other church only accepts children that are going into the 1st grade to 6th grade. The church that I attend DOES NOT do what this church has done as far as reference. If they are saved great if not they can choose whether or not to get saved but we don't force them by no means
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LysesKids 06:00 PM 06-11-2017
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
We have ALL school age parents to sign permission forms for these outings. We use to go to 2 VBS at one time I personally like the other church better than this one BUT the reason that we send our kids to this particular church as opposed to the other church is because they both fall on the same week plus thus particular church accepts children that are 4 years old to 6th grade and the other church only accepts children that are going into the 1st grade to 6th grade. The church that I attend DOES NOT do what this church has done as far as reference. If they are saved great if not they can choose whether or not to get saved but we don't force them by no means
My child was not school age when it happened to me, she was barely 4 & the provider was working a different room than where my child would have been... I have issues with that. I was paying her to care for my dd, not have her in someone else care 3 hrs day... someone I had no clue who they were, much less how the church ran. I also wouldn't want someone asking if my kid is saved when she was baptized in a totally different religion. Just my point of view
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Blackcat31 06:41 AM 06-12-2017
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
We have ALL school age parents to sign permission forms for these outings. We use to go to 2 VBS at one time I personally like the other church better than this one BUT the reason that we send our kids to this particular church as opposed to the other church is because they both fall on the same week plus thus particular church accepts children that are 4 years old to 6th grade and the other church only accepts children that are going into the 1st grade to 6th grade. The church that I attend DOES NOT do what this church has done as far as reference. If they are saved great if not they can choose whether or not to get saved but we don't force them by no means
Okay I am confused, why is this daycare bringing the kids to a VBS program anyways?

Unless the daycare is a religious based program, it seems like you (not you directly OP but the daycare) are simply using the VBS program as a free activity so to speak and unless your program and/or your parents ARE seeking a religious activity or a religious lesson WHY go/participate?

I don't know but to me it just seems wrong if there is no purpose to going other than using it as a time filler or an activity that you (the daycare itself) doesn't have to coordinate, host or put together.
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midaycare 06:47 AM 06-12-2017
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Okay I am confused, why is this daycare bringing the kids to a VBS program anyways?

Unless the daycare is a religious based program, it seems like you (not you directly OP but the daycare) are simply using the VBS program as a free activity so to speak and unless your program and/or your parents ARE seeking a religious activity or a religious lesson WHY go/participate?

I don't know but to me it just seems wrong if there is no purpose to going other than using it as a time filler or an activity that you (the daycare itself) doesn't have to coordinate, host or put together.
I agree with this.

Many churches need volunteers so badly that they will use anyone. Middle schoolers, teens, parents without background checks. Yikes.
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hwichlaz 02:34 PM 06-12-2017
Originally Posted by hwichlaz:
I oversimplified when describing our AWANA program....but it's still certainly run like a conversion program once you get past the cubbies in to sparks.
Our local group specifical asks children if they are saved, and the ones that are, are given incentives and prizes for it. They are taught to try to convert non believing parents as well...which is a quick way to cause custody problems for single parents.
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